Curse

Nightwish · Aug 03, 2005, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ages

The problem is, The Enchantless Teams you mention more than oftain also Run NR, All it takes is one player on the team to make a NR Spammer to Disable all Chances of a Enchantment team from working. The Meta Game is stoped because 1 Person can Disable the team, Unlike other builds where its whole a teams Effort to counter. This one NR Spammer can Dictate what can and will work against them, Because of that the other players on the team can focus on Patching up what NR Does not cover. (What is not that much)

Sounds possible. The only advantage enchantless teams over NR teams is 1 skill slot. Since NR teams will be enchantless as well, things balance out. Hence, seems like enchantless/hexless teams using NR will have the most advantage over - enchantment team and NR-less enchantless team.

This build will be the metagame for the rest of GW life

Soon, the only build you see is NR enchantless ones

p/s. Hope i don't sound like a wet blanket

Phades · Aug 03, 2005, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Need to include hexless teams as well, since the NR team's brush strokes swipe rather wide.

JoDiamonds · Aug 03, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

It's possible that NR is utterly broken and the metagame is dead. Personally, I think it's still a little early to call the gravediggers. That was a part of my point.

People are innovative. I'm pretty sure there is a good counter to NRs teams (because it is a team, not just a skill slot), but maybe no one will find it within a couple of months, in which case Arena should absolutely step in and keep us all from being bored out of our minds. But three weeks ago, I don't remember hearing any complaints about NR. It was all complaints about Air Spiking teams, which miraculously aren't dominant anymore. ;-)

There's at least some length of time where Arena should let players try to figure out an answer, though. Even if there isn't an answer, it would be remarkably rude (in a way) for Arena to step in and insist that's true without giving players a chance to find out for themselves.

Darkrouge101 · Aug 03, 2005, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

It's possible that NR is utterly broken and the metagame is dead. Personally, I think it's still a little early to call the gravediggers. That was a part of my point.

People are innovative. I'm pretty sure there is a good counter to NRs teams (because it is a team, not just a skill slot), but maybe no one will find it within a couple of months, in which case Arena should absolutely step in and keep us all from being bored out of our minds. But three weeks ago, I don't remember hearing any complaints about NR. It was all complaints about Air Spiking teams, which miraculously aren't dominant anymore. ;-)

There's at least some length of time where Arena should let players try to figure out an answer, though. Even if there isn't an answer, it would be remarkably rude (in a way) for Arena to step in and insist that's true without giving players a chance to find out for themselves.

Very nicely stated. I completely agree with you, that time will create and destroy new tactics and "fads"... but we still have to try to work against those

Because the day that we do find something to counter these "fads", that is the day everyone witnesses our greatness. Or the fact that we just read something on a Guild wars forum. Whatever.

Thom · Aug 03, 2005, 06:09 AM // 06:09

It is fairly clear that NR is overpowered. Charles will hate it if I suggest "eliting" the skill, but it would solve the problem. I feel that a cost bump would be a nice solution, say 25 energy. This is still fairly cheap for rangers given the power of the skill, but it would make it less spammable. Maybe a second or two added to the casting time as well.

NR remains feasible, but the level of "abuse" of the skill will decrease some.

Darkrouge101 · Aug 03, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

It is fairly clear that NR is overpowered. Charles will hate it if I suggest "eliting" the skill, but it would solve the problem. I feel that a cost bump would be a nice solution, say 25 energy. This is still fairly cheap for rangers given the power of the skill, but it would make it less spammable. Maybe a second or two added to the casting time as well.

NR remains feasible, but the level of "abuse" of the skill will decrease some.

That would help out a lot. NR shouldn't be nerfed down to nothing, because then rangers would be near useless in PvP. Maybe just a slightly higher energy cost would be better

Lord Malikai · Aug 03, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40

My guild runs an enchantment/hex free build and can whoop on NR spirit spam. It also does well against spike builds and general "we outdamage you" builds. The real problem is smite builds. Wow, just wow. NR would actually help vs them but hey, ya can't win em all. I don't see NR as a big problem really, it is yet another FotM and will soon be realized it works against certain builds, yet other builds completely destroy them.

Silent Butt Deadly · Aug 03, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Isn't the ELITE tag on skills designed to ensure that skill combos that are too powerful cannot exist (or at least not easily)? Therefore, wouldn't dropping an elite tag on Natures Renewal effectively stop the Oath Shot/NR combo that appears to be the main cause for the spammability(@Tm) that everyone is not happy with. This in turn would force NR spammers to diversify into something like all team rangers having NR (as they seem to atm but would require considerably more team co-ordination for the spamming to be maintained) or exploration of alternative secondary professions with skill duplication options. This seems to be the simplest solution whilst not overly nerfing the skill (perhaps even reduce the cast time as a balancing of making it an elite skill), making use of the system they already have in place for reducing overly powerful combination skills. Coupled with the signet designed to prevent elite skill usage this then gives a few more counter NR options as well. Just a thought....

...or how about a few W/Me (Echo/Blackout) team members to shutdown the rangers of all things...(no forget I said that...but it sounded fun at the time...)

Phades · Aug 03, 2005, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Only making it eliete wont solve alot, it will just shift the way the skills is abused from a single ranger to dual r/me copying each other or dual rangers merly using quickening and serpents quicknes and alternating. Raising the energy cost would help some, but to be honest, the skill doesnt need to be spammed by a single user to be effective. Using it as a hole punch or a countermove does require situational awareness, but it is still feasable and potentially just as effective.

The skill just does way too much, lasts too long, and has too wide an area of effect with no real drawbacks. Nothing begins to approach the amount of power this thing weilds. Conversly, if this skill didnt exist then there would exist a problem with breaking enchantment builds reliably (ie another situation without a counter). I still believe that they need to go back to the root of the problem and work their way back up the chain and finish with NR, not begin with NR.

MowaMoka · Aug 04, 2005, 03:08 AM // 03:08

our guild has been testing some anti ranger builds lately and we finaly came up with one particularly astonishing. it was actualy an accident we got tiered of trying to beat unsuccessfully these rangers with special theorized builds. as a joke one member said that we had less trouble vs ranger teams with our elem spike team than with our creations so it inspired us on making an air spike group. we soon realized that we needed to get around the rangers natural def vs elemental dmg. we then conducted many tests with armor ignoring high dmg builds such as blood necros or smiter or even dmg dealing mesmers they all worked rather well vs the rangers (mostly the smite) but we did horrible vs anything else. we had bad armor and not enough focus fire on the other builds with more defence buffing enchants (life bond/barrier or prot bond). we then came up with a very COOL build. amazingly its the elems that can own the rangers. yet this build isnt very fine tuned yet we got two HoH sigle wins with it.

setup:
-4 E/R or E/W
-3 good monks(2 heal 1prot/ 3healers)
-1 N/Mo

the 4 elems must have 16 earth 11 energy storage 8 attribs in the secondary proff and use the wand+focus that both have nrg regen -1 and nrg +15. they must spam obsedian flame on a single target and use the secondary proffesion to use stances that block attacks. they must run obsedian flesh as an elite since it has 30 sec recharge and lasts 21sec with 16earth. the rest of the skills must be wards vs melee and elements armor of earth and some sort of emergency heal in case the monks are in big trouble (heal sig works well since if u are the E/W version u should run 8 tactics for the stances). U should understand how to use this build after 30minutes or so and it works great (except for the huge exhustion prob but its about 2-3minutes b4 u get shutdown by the exhustion so better spike well).

the 3 monks are very standard and they are there to fix the teams common mistakes so almost any good monk build will do.

last but not least the necro is a key for the elementals to unleash their powers. this char should have 16curses and 12 smiting. as soon as a target is chosen the necro goes soul barbs=lingering curse=defile flesh=scourge healing after he uses strip enchants on any new enchant. defile flesh is optional (if u dont use defile u can try to use awaken the blood for extra efectivity but it becomes rather vulnerable to enemies). basicaly this build is the anti monk for the poor guy who is about to get spiked.

I hope this could help bring the balence back in the force (GW HoH strategies).
IGN=Mowa Moka

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 04, 2005, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Or reinstate unnatural signet and bloody fix it. Possible fix: the recharge increases as does the number of spirits cast by foes. Abusable, but something.

Amen...

Possible anti-fix. Oath Shot {E} recharges Unnatural Signet.

bobrath · Aug 04, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Shifting it to Elite would at least force the problem away from being caused by a single player.

From reading all the threads (and that's a lot of reading), it seems like the real problem comes from the mass enchantment/hex removal and not the increased casting time. Combining that initial affect with Oath Shot leads to a very small window for any ench/hex to have an effect. Sure there are other combinations of skills that can result in a reduced recharge time, but the important thing there is that you would have removed the power to affect builds and teams from a single person's two skills to half their skill bar (or even more). If teams want to devote 1/8th of their ability and power to maintaining this spirit, well that's a reasonable (and counterable) choice.

Heck through up Energizing Wind and you've just counteracted the other teams ability to rapidly deploy NR (assuming they can't force a recharge with Oath Shot).

To me, making NR elite is a simple and elegant solution. If its still too powerful, then increasing its recharge time (while increasing its life/duration) will still allow it to be useful, but the sudden and repeated removal of every hex and enchantment will be done.

And for those folks saying "don't nerf NR, you'll make rangers useless again"..... If one skill is all that makes a ranger useful, well then Anet really screwed something up OR you need to take a second look at the class.

JackOften · Aug 04, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

Holy *funny censoring*ing noob shit.
Just make some arrows miss and smithe the hell our of thoose rangers, knock em down a bit and use some AoE and condition spreading, most of them are not very smart because it doesnt need a single brain cell to run spirit spam.

You're an idiot, just like you were in NS.

AoE condition spreading? One Nec with tainted, nobody runs without it - durrr. Knockdowns? You can probably do it, but only via eles or sympathetic visage and the QZ drainmesmer will get you - even then you'll run out quick and not make much of a dent on the mantra of frost that all important members of the team have anyway - which gives rangers the equivalent of 155 AL and 105 for Mesmers/Monks (probably around the 80-100 for the monks, due to lack of attrib).

The reason natures is whack is yes, oath shot and the fact you can make builds that rule under natures.

And smiting in PvP is plainly idiotic if their team isn't asleep. First you need to get it up through the natures every 15 seconds, then you need to hope they can't just seed a guy, and if they do you need to find him, disenchant (probably chillblains) and at that point they're all healed up from the mass seed-trigger and the next natures is going down. Back to square 1.

Sharpsight · Aug 09, 2005, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MowaMoka

setup:
-4 E/R or E/W
-3 good monks(2 heal 1prot/ 3healers)
-1 N/Mo

the 4 elems must have 16 earth 11 energy storage 8 attribs in the secondary proff and use the wand+focus that both have nrg regen -1 and nrg +15. they must spam obsedian flame on a single target and use the secondary proffesion to use stances that block attacks. they must run obsedian flesh as an elite since it has 30 sec recharge and lasts 21sec with 16earth. the rest of the skills must be wards vs melee and elements armor of earth and some sort of emergency heal in case the monks are in big trouble (heal sig works well since if u are the E/W version u should run 8 tactics for the stances). U should understand how to use this build after 30minutes or so and it works great (except for the huge exhustion prob but its about 2-3minutes b4 u get shutdown by the exhustion so better spike well).

the 3 monks are very standard and they are there to fix the teams common mistakes so almost any good monk build will do.

last but not least the necro is a key for the elementals to unleash their powers. this char should have 16curses and 12 smiting. as soon as a target is chosen the necro goes soul barbs=lingering curse=defile flesh=scourge healing after he uses strip enchants on any new enchant. defile flesh is optional (if u dont use defile u can try to use awaken the blood for extra efectivity but it becomes rather vulnerable to enemies). basicaly this build is the anti monk for the poor guy who is about to get spiked.

That sounds like a viable build, but what's the plan for energy maintenance with only 2 regen and NR stripping earth attune (if you're even using it, that is)?

Other than that it looks like a very viable build. Without energy maintenance, it seems that that build won't have the staying power to win...

cookiehoarder · Aug 09, 2005, 11:22 AM // 11:22

EoE doesn't always work!!!!!!! Think of Fertile Season that is +370 life to a lvl 8-10 spirit. THAT MEANS THEY DONT DIE EASILY.

Ollj · Aug 09, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

was in a smite build that owned enough nattures renewal to say it just works!

Thomasuwoo · Aug 09, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiehoarder

EoE doesn't always work!!!!!!! Think of Fertile Season that is +370 life to a lvl 8-10 spirit. THAT MEANS THEY DONT DIE EASILY.

They don't have to! They Die after a certain amount of time.if they've been spammed they'll all die at once an edge will chain react. It Works. We do it.

elk · Aug 09, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Sorry - didnt' take the time to read through all the posts so If I'm repeating anyone, it wasn't my intent.
I personally don't understand why this skill hasn't been "nerfed" as so many others in the past have considering its current strength. Weaker, more useless skills have been tagged elite from overpowered/abused combos and I would think this one should follow suit. Even with QZ and Serpents - you can get the recharge down to 20 secs (plus 5sec cast on top) and with multiple ppl carrying it let alone in combination with Oath shot just makes it overpowered. Under most cases this effects probably 80-90% of the builds running in some way shape or form and so if you're not carrying it - you're getting beat by it. When you look at the Greater Conflag/Winter combo and the nerf for elite there - I can't see why you can't make the same case here for a Natures/Oath. It would really change the use of that spirit if it had an E tag.

Just my two cents

elk

jesh · Aug 09, 2005, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Nature's Renewal {Elite} - Nature Ritual
Create a level 1-8 Spirit. When the spirit expires, or is destroyed, for creatures within range, 1-3 "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed. 50% chance of failure with 6 Wilderness Survival or less. Each point increases the chance of success, 100% at 12 wilderness. This Spirit dies after 50 seconds.
5e /5sec /60 recharge

Would this be good? Yes, it is different.. might be too much? If Arena does stumble upon this by accident, at least they can have something to look at. Suggestions! ^^

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

The only way to "counter" NR is to find the spirit spammer and Interupt him. The other good way is to have Energizing wind in your build, so that it takes longer for him to recast it. Now, if he's an oath shot build, blind him, constantly.

If they have several people casting NR, kill them, and shutdown 1 of them. That's really the only way to "counter" NR. But it actually works if you practice it.